Chief Deputy Matthew Thomas on Courage, Cartels & the Border Crisis | Ep. 204

In this episode of the Spartan Leadership Podcast, Josh Kosnick sits down with Chief Deputy Matthew Thomas of the Pinal County Sheriff's Office—one of the nation’s foremost voices on law enforcement, leadership, and border security.

With over three decades of service, 700+ SWAT missions, and frontline experience battling cartel activity, Matt offers a raw, unfiltered look at what it means to lead under pressure.

🎯 Key Topics:
- How to lead when lives—not just livelihoods—are on the line
- Border realities most Americans never hear about
- The human toll of cartel-driven crime
- SWAT leadership, undercover ops, and legacy leadership
- Recruitment, retention, and redefining public engagement in law enforcement

📚 Grab Matt’s book, Interceptors: The Untold Fight Against the Mexican Cartels:
👉 https://www.amazon.com/Interceptors-Untold-Against-Mexican-Cartels/dp/0578374277

📱 Follow Matt on Instagram:
👉 https://www.instagram.com/deputy_onetime/?hl=en

🌉 Connect with Josh Kosnick and explore coaching, masterminds, and speaking engagements:
👉 https://www.joshkosnick.com

🛎️ New episodes every week — Subscribe for more bold leadership conversations.
🔥 Let’s build something that lasts.

#SpartanLeadership #JoshKosnick #MatthewThomas #LawEnforcement #Leadership #BorderCrisis #SWAT #Cartels #PublicSafety #FirstResponders #LegacyLeadership

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Transcript

Matthew Thomas: 0:00

this is not an easy job to to do day in and day out You do see some of society's worst but you also see some of the coolest stuff in the world I cannot believe that we get paid to do this it was the best job ever man you got you got action You're just dealing with all kinds of different people typically us in the in the business a normal person they may see a handful and that would be a lot a handful of traumatic events throughout their life and us in this business we could see anywhere from 200 to 900 Traumatic incidents depending on where you work and how you work Like we are the line between just anarchy and chaos and normal life for people And you take a lot of pride in that

Josh Kosnick: 0:48

seeing the video of that thin blue line running towards chaos running to go help immediately they're on a corner they start hearing the com commotion boom They all run into action

Matthew Thomas: 1:01

They're all human beings that chose this job And so what I can tell you is they all at that moment fought through any fear that they had in their heart because it's not an easy thing to run to where you may be killed The humility piece is huge because I think that's what connects you to other human beings right when they understand that you're just like for me I just I tell people I'm just a dude I've been blessed with a great position a leadership position There was no doubt that the dudes that surrounded me would go through the door with me no matter what We could be catching gunfire we could be taking grenades whatever They're gonna run through that door with me And I know that and I trust that And I never second guessed that And I know it's not because of my leadership it's because of that love and that wanting to serve each other and help each other if we're humble leaders we have those type of connections throughout our ranks

Josh Kosnick: 2:15

Welcome back to Spartan Leadership. We're a Leader to Leader podcast, and today will be no different. Today we're joined by someone who embodies the true meaning of leadership under Pressure Chief Deputy Matthew Thomas of the, how do you pronounce that? Pinal.

Matthew Thomas: 2:30

Pin

Josh Kosnick: 2:31

Pinal. See, I got it wrong on the first two guesses. Pinal County Sheriff's Office, with over three decades of experience in law enforcement, Matt has dedicated his life to protecting his community and leading his teams through some of the most challenging scenarios imaginable. So he started as a detention officer back in 93, and he is risen to the ranks to become second in command of an agency that oversees over 600 employees and a$50 million operating budget. He's commanded over 700 swap missions, worked undercover in narcotics and tackled cartel driven crime in one of the most, one of the nation's most complex and dangerous re regions. But Matt's not just about operations, he's passionate about leadership and that's why he is here today because this is that leadership episode or leadership podcast. So specifically building a legacy that inspires and equips others to excel. I love Matt and his bio already. Welcome to the show, brother.

Matthew Thomas: 3:24

Thanks for having me. Glad to join you.

Josh Kosnick: 3:27

so your career spans over three decades starting as detention officer and rising to chief Deputy. Take us back to the beginning, though. What inspired you to step into law enforcement in the first place?

Matthew Thomas: 3:40

man, I don't know. I don't know if it was inspiration or, or need it, there was definitely inspiration to serve, so I wanted to serve in some capacity whether that be military or law enforcement. But at the ripe old age of 19 years old, a then girlfriend, now wife of 31 years was pregnant. And I had a life decision to make at that point. And so I knew that I had to get into something quickly. I knew I wanted to serve in some capacity and so I started applying to different agencies. And I was actually looking at the military as well, and Pinal was the first one to throw out an offer. And I've been there for coming up on 32 years now.

Josh Kosnick: 4:22

Man, that's, we make those decisions in life when we have to, when we're forced into something. But you've chosen to stay with it for almost 32 years. What's inspired you to keep going and some of the'cause I teed you up like you've gone through and seen some of the worst and probably some great things as well, but to stick at it for almost 32 years, somethings must have kept you there. What's really been behind that?

Matthew Thomas: 4:43

It's gonna be a combination of things for sure. Sure. Because this is not an easy job to, to do, day in and day out. You do see some of society's worst. But you also see some of the coolest stuff in the world. And I think once I got into it again I did have a heart to serve. I had that drive. I had a cool upbringing with a lot of exposure to my grandparents who were both World War II vets, and specifically my grandpa. And he was a small business owner, had a lot of vet friends that would come over to his business, and I got to watch the interactions, the comradery. So I think I was always attracted to that. And once you get into this profession, that it's very similar to the military in that sense, a lot of comradery. The structure was good for me because I needed structure. And so it was good to have that chain of command and that very rigid organizational structure. Uh, And then to be honest, once I, uh, I worked attention for a little bit, and then I went out onto the street as a cop, as a deputy sheriff. And when I hit the streets, I was like, dude, I cannot believe that we get paid to do this. It was the best job ever, man. You you got, you got action. You, You're just dealing with all kinds of different people. And I had a pretty rough upbringing. I grew up in a rough area, and so being in those high crime impoverished areas didn't bother me at all. I didn't view, those people as any less. I viewed them as equals, and I think that helped connect the humanity part of it for me. And so I. I was just having a blast and I've been having a blast for over 30 years and it's a fantastic job and it sucks sometimes, but I think the. the Cool and the good far outweigh the bad. And you can see almost every day that you make a difference in your community, right? You have a direct effect on the people that live in your community. So I think all that stuff keeps you pushing forward.

Josh Kosnick: 6:37

Is it? Is it hard? To keep that level of humanity when you're seeing some of the wor, or on those days that you see the worst of the worst.

Matthew Thomas: 6:46

Oh, dude. Yeah, it's it's never easy. This has been 32 years of ups and downs and the downs are the lowest of the low. Typically us in the in the business a normal person, they may see, a handful and that would be a lot, a handful of traumatic events throughout their life. And us in this business, we could see anywhere from 200 to 900. Traumatic incidents, depending on where you work and how you work. So the exposure to the bad can make it tough. But you, I think for me a big part of pushing through the bad was understanding that there was a lot more good and that I had a purpose in the world and that we all do in uniform. We have a specific purpose, and without us, this kind of all falls apart. And I think people forget how fragile our society is. And when you get into this job, you see the fragility of between chaos and just normal life. And you have a true understanding that thin blue line is really a thing. Like we are the line between just anarchy and chaos and normal life for people. And take a lot of pride in that. And so again, that helps, get you through those hard times. But the hard times suck, man. They have a toll on you. They have a toll on your family.

Josh Kosnick: 8:08

Yeah, Speaking of hard times and chaos, just, yesterday morning, early yesterday morning as a moment that we're recording this, the New Orleans incident happened and a driver of a pickup truck kills at least 10, injuring 30. I saw a video on X or Twitter, I still can't call it X man, it's still Twitter. Um, seen the video of that thin blue line running towards chaos, running to go help immediately, they're on a corner, they start hearing the com commotion, boom. They all run into action. And that's a large part of what we don't necessarily see. Like you guys are running straight into the danger, uh. with such bravery and selflessness, and yet the media and TV is constantly. stoking the race flames and stoking the immigration crisis even further with essentially bastardizing your career, so let's, I touched on two different topics there, but let's talk about the New Orleans incident. Like from your, your outside, you're in a different state, uh, that world very much like what went on there that night. What goes through an officer's mind in that moment of chaos?

Matthew Thomas: 9:22

Man it's really gonna depend.'cause I can tell you, I saw the group of officers that you're talking about, I've seen that video play over and over. So it looked like there was probably 10 or 15 officers that all bolted at the same time and took off towards the chaos. And so in that group of officers, you're gonna have a duff, different experience, different people, different upbringing, different backgrounds. They're all human beings that chose this job. And so what I can tell you is they all at that moment fought through any fear that they had in their heart because it's not an easy thing to run to where, you may be killed. It's not. As easy as the movies make it a seem. And so there's always a little bit of doubt in your heart, but I think what ends up happening is a switch gets flipped and it's all part of your training and it's all part of your experience as you come up and become a more experienced cop and that switch flips and you know it's time to go to work. And realistically, you're not thinking about your family. You're not thinking about yourself, you're not thinking about any of that stuff that can be distractions. You're thinking about a problem and solving it. And so that group of cops, they heard and probably saw a problem and so they flipped that switch and they all took off running to try and go solve that problem. And, you see it over and over again, especially with all the cameras out there nowadays with all the videos going on. The heroics of cops across the world, not just the country. When. When something like that happens, that switch flips and they just go to work and they do the best they can, and sometimes it, it's gonna cost your life, unfortunately. But I think we all understand that and we all know we didn't necessarily sign up to get killed. But we signed up knowing that is a byproduct of the work that we do because we work in a violent world. And yeah, just it's, again, it's just I can't say it's built into you, but, uh, it's just part of who you are and what you believe is that I am extreme in my life if I have to intervene.

Josh Kosnick: 11:28

Yeah. Yeah, It's just traumatic and our hearts go out to all those affected down there. My old college roommate was down there, fortunately, he is old like me, and went to bed. Early Enough that he wasn't there for the event that he ended up flying home today and skipping the football game just'cause of he was sick of seeing the crime scene and how he was almost affected. So, That being said, the leadership that you've seen over the years and been a part of and are now our key leader on the team, talk about the structure a little bit because I think this crosses paths into entrepreneurial space as well. Law enforcement, military have some of the most stringent structure that I've seen, and yet a lot of business owners have some of the weakest structure to their organizations, and I help coach them through that a lot as part of my, the work that I do to help them get more structure in their lives in a chaotic world. That is entrepreneurship. That is entrepreneurship. Talk about some of the structure, the good leadership, the bad leadership that you've seen along with that in your time in the last 32 years.

Matthew Thomas: 12:30

The structure is key, right? Because, unlike a boardroom, when we have something pop up there's lives involved, right? It's not profits or gains or losses. It's lives at stake. And so we have to be very precise and we have to be able to execute upon command. And so when you talk about our structure, we're a paramilitary organization as law enforcement. And what that means is we have that rank structure. So you know, you have your deputies and those are the line level workers, and they are the ones doing the majority of the work. And then you have your first line supervisors for us would be sergeants. And then you start to get up and rank into the, what we call executive staff, which would be your lieutenants, captains, and on up. And that structure, that layer is all put there. Specifically. For those purposes so that each level has their job, has their duties, has their vision and mission and then each level above them that broadens. And so you're seeing a bigger picture. And like for me, in my position I'm looking at the whole ship, right? And steering this whole ship. And as you go down each level, they have specific missions within that overall mission. And how that works for us, and especially the structure, how it works for us is when we have those critical incidents take off, let's talk about the Louisiana incident again. When that, when something like that happens your command system goes into place and you have bosses who start directing resources to the appropriate places and start taking care of problems and start filling in gaps and start preparing if there's gonna be secondary or tertiary. Issues. Go on. You're dealing with all that. So it really works well for our purposes and then in, even in the day-to-day business because, for me, handling the budget a normal week you have operations happening and needs happening. And those needs flow up and flow down. And certain levels have certain authorities and so they can call the shots for certain things and put those orders out. And it makes for a seamless kind of just a seamless flow. And there's other stuff that need to go higher. Now, I can tell you that that can slow things down sometimes. And that I think is the benefit that private sector has over government work is our structure sometimes can slow operations down because if you have to go through that chain to get your approvals and it has to come all the way back down that. Things can get stuck. And yeah. the private sector they seem to be more nimble because they can move laterally. They can go from the top to the bottom and as we can too. But ours is a lot more formalized I guess.

Speaker View: 15:09

Yeah.

Matthew Thomas: 15:09

again, helps in our world and works in our world. For us specifically, we have, we recognize where our weak spots are in the slow slowness of response in some things. And so we'll cut that chain down. And so we may we have a special unit that they go after, the worst of the worst in our county and sometimes in our state. And they're a special little squad that we formed and they answer straight to us. We didn't put any chain in between them because we want them to operate much like an SOF squad in the military where they have autonomy and they are very clear on where their orders are coming from and what their orders are. Because as you add layers sometimes that telephone game can happen and orders can get filtered on the way down, or they can get information can get filtered on the way up. So we recognize that and try to flow through that and work around it sometimes. I think that answered part of your question. Now asked me a second part about good leaders, bad leaders

Josh Kosnick: 16:08

I'll ask that in our frame, but I wanna give some context to the entrepreneurs that may be listening. You may not have lives at stake, but you have livelihoods at stake, Yeah. So structure is very important to your organization. and Following standard operating procedures and making sure that everyone's playing by the same rule book because livelihoods and your business is at stake even though lives may not be at stake. So just wanna set that context. But as you've seen, and you've probably, in your 32 years, seen great leaders, poor leaders, as we all do. what in What's what in what constitutes a great leader for you?

Matthew Thomas: 17:55

Oh man. I would consider my sheriff sheriff Mark ly just, just left office on the 31st. That was his last night. And he to me, constitutes a great leader. And I think one of his. I. Best traits as a leader is humility. And I think that by far carries over for any leader no matter the industry, private sector, whether it's government, whatever. The humility piece is huge because I think that's what connects you to other human beings, right? When they understand that you're just like, for me, I just, I tell people, I'm just a dude. I've been blessed with a great position, a leadership position. But I consider this position not my position. I, I consider it their position, and my position is to serve them, and I have to have the humility to be able to do that. And I have to have the humility to also hear. Where I suck and where I'm causing them issues and I have to be able to put myself in their shoes and I have to also be willing to share my view with them. I can't just the days of, because I told you so are really over, right? People information is at their tips all the time, and so they expect information. So as a leader, I have to be humble enough to realize Hey man I have to take the time to explain a lot of things from my perspective. I have to be able to hear where I'm sucking, where I'm causing them problems, because that's one of the big things we do as leaders. You get into these positions and, just by human nature, people around you start to not tell you the things you need to hear. And I think that's a dangerous thing because I. You start hearing, you're great. Everything's great. You're doing great. And I've had this where it's happened to me, where I've looked around and I'm like, no, everything's not great. There's problems. I want you guys to tell me like the truth about these problems. And when you have the humility to do that and sit down with a room of people and tell'em please tell me, where I suck so that I can shore that up because I wanna be the best leader I can be for you. And I also want to show them much like I show my kids, this is the example I want you to follow. This is the type of leader I want you to be because this is what works. This is what people embrace. This is what makes people'cause people are driven. I know there's a lot of people driven by extrinsic stuff, but intrinsic motivation is the biggest thing. And if a person is intrinsically motivated to follow my leadership, that means we have a connection. And you talk about our profession, when I was on the SWAT team. There was no doubt that the dudes that surrounded me would go through the door with me no matter what. We could be catching gunfire, we could be taking grenades, whatever. They're gonna run through that door with me. And I know that, and I trust that. And I never second guessed that. And I know because it's not because of my leadership, it's because of that love and that wanting to serve each other and help each other. And I think, again, going back to humility, if we're humble leaders, we have those type of connections throughout our ranks.

Josh Kosnick: 21:08

Yeah, that's a, a, that's an awesome answer. And humility is a key trait of leadership. Yeah. And you ask anyone that's been on the Special forces, how they got through buds and it's always about the others around them. Anyone that was there for themselves rarely gets through it. Yep. And that's that brotherhood and the military and the law enforcement. And frankly, for those of us that find that brotherhood, whether it's a bible study, whether it's just some great friends, you know how those light your life up and breathe life into you when they have your back in your darkest moments. so What I really wanted to talk to you about today was this border crisis. And I know you're at the, some of the front lines of it, Arizona, Texas, New Mexico, but obviously this was a hot button issue during the election. It's still being talked about. Very much tell us how bad is it? Because we hear all the media talking heads, we The politicians. What? What are we like? For those of us that are you know, I'm on the opposite border. I'm in Wisconsin. For those of us up here that are so far removed from it, what's going on?

Matthew Thomas: 22:22

What has happened specifically over the last four years, Is essentially lawlessness at the southern border, and it's starting to affect the northern border too because what people have to understand is I'm married to a Mexican and her mom immigrated here illegally and then, went back, got her legal citizenship and carried forward as a US citizen. And they come from Chihuahua, Mexico and down at Chihuahua, Mexico, where they're from, the cartels rule, everything. And that's true of the entire country now, the cartels rule today. And not to sensationalize it, but the cartels are a huge criminal organization that are the most powerful right now in the world. They have their tentacles throughout the world and they happen to be at our southern doorstep. And they also, what you have to understand in this region is there's familial bonds. So back when the US bought this territory and all of a sudden it became the us almost overnight that was Mexico. And then they just moved the line after the purchase and said, this is now America. You had families on both sides of that line now, because some. Got bought into America and some were still in Mexico. And so there's familial bonds across there. So the cartels have their tentacles deep into this southwest border and throughout the world, like I said. But them being the power that they are, they control everything. And I was telling you about my wife's family because when they immigrated here, and this was true back in the beginning of my career, there were a lot of people not a lot, but compared to now. But there were people that were coming from those countries, especially Mexico, coming over for quote unquote, a better life, right? And that, that held true. The people that were immigrating across were coming here to work, coming here to look for better jobs. They would send money home. That was all very true. That still happens to an extent today. I. The difference being today, the cartel controls all of that movement. So back then, those people could just walk through the desert, get into the us and get to a city and they were good. Now the cartel controls everything moving across that border. That's how powerful they are. So when people move across that border, those people have to pay a fee. And so the cartel controls those areas, those fees. You pay your fee and then you get across. And typically speaking, they only guarantee you into the us. Once you get to the us, if you get picked up by the next crew, then that crew will tell you. That money was for them on that side. Now you're in the us you're in our territory. So now you owe us more money. I don't have any more money. Okay, you're going to work for us to work that off and they can become indentured slaves. And for females, you know what that means? That's going into the sex trade most of the time. Um, For males, it could be that they're mules carrying dope. It could be whatever, work the cartel wants them to do for'em. So the days of people just simply coming here for a better life are no more because of that big criminal organization controlling the border. And with that comes all the bad. So if you look at our area, like from our county's about 55 miles off of the US Mexican border at the closest point. But why we are key terrain for the Sinaloa cartel specifically is that is all open desert and a lot of it is Indian reservation all the way into, To uh, Mexico. And so they have free reign in that area, and they exploit that heavily. And so all of that adds to the problem. And then if you look at the last four years, the policy differences from the national level, when they when they did away, almost immediately with the remain in Mexico for asylum they, we had huge influxes of people. And with those big influxes of people, what the Americans don't realize, they, because you'll look at this on the news and you'll be like, oh, those poor people, they're in that huge caravan and they just want to get here for a better life. I. That's true of some of them, but not all of them. Some of them are bad actors. And then you add into that, that the cartel specifically pushes them towards certain areas to overwhelm the system. and They're overwhelming the system as a faint. So I'm gonna push people here, it's gonna cause border patrol to react and they're all gonna have to come here, use all their resources. And while that is going on, the fentanyl flow and the meth flow is going around them on the edges uh, where it's unprotected. And so that's what's been happening and it's become more and more prolific as we loosened up the rules over the past four years. And prior to that, we had better rules in place. We had, we're never gonna stop it. And another thing people don't understand is these routes have been these routes since the poncho Villa days. And so there's a long history of smuggling routes here in the Southwest. So we're never gonna completely stop it. But man, we can mitigate it and we can do a lot better than we're doing now.

Josh Kosnick: 27:25

Do. Do you have any idea how many have crossed in the four years? Are the numbers the media is reporting remotely? True.

Matthew Thomas: 27:39

I'm gonna say are best guesses. And so I, you hear, 10 million, 12 million, those are all conservative numbers. Usually when we talk about it, I, we usually think that it's around the 20 million range somewhere in that area that have come through over the past, four years. And when you look at those numbers comparatively to the years prior to that, the decades prior to that, this has been a hu the largest human migration into our country ever. And again. You take a percentage of those that are bad actors. And that's what really concerns us is they went unchecked and again, they flooded our system, they overwhelmed our system, and then sometimes our system just didn't care. And that was because of orders from the top telling them to look the other way. And the immigration piece is very problematic because they have obviously overwhelmed. Our society, right? We weren't ready for that influx. That's why we have legal immigration is because our government needs to control how many we process through and how many we allow into the country so that we can, resource wise, we can keep up with that, right? Because some of'em are gonna need government resources. Some of them, they're gonna need jobs. Obviously our hospitals are taxed. Our schools are taxed. So our infrastructure has to keep up with the flow. And when you have them come in the way they've been coming in over the past few years through illegal entry, and we have no way to control that, then it starts taxing our entire system.

Josh Kosnick: 29:21

Yep. Yeah, that's unreal. And that's why I figured the numbers that were being reported were. Very conservative, uh, because you can't track what is the ones that aren't even being processed. Like those ones that they're getting around, um, the edges, like you mentioned, whether it's drugs or people. Um, so interesting. So what would I guess how frustrating is that for the officers that are trying to do their job and they're getting orders from the top to not do their job?

Matthew Thomas: 29:51

Oh my gosh. Yeah. If we talk about border patrol specifically, they have been through hell and back over the past four years because they literally signed up to do just what they're designed to do, and they're being told no, and, go do this instead, which is completely counterintuitive for a lot of them. So the morale of the border patrol. Has been horrible. It increased quite a bit in November. I'll let you do the math as to why. once we got through November, the border patrol was feeling a lot better about the future because, they all just like a cop on the street. They have a specific job that they're designed to do. And you saw this happen and you still see it happen in some areas with cops where our job is to fight crime and put criminals in jail. And there's some of these cities that are telling'em, no, don't do that. Don't arrest people. Don't put bad guys in jail, just. Just drive around and look pretty or whatever, because we don't want any controversy. And you're seeing what that equals. And so it's the same thing for the border patrol. They're down there and they're watching this mass influx and they know the problems that it causes and they just have to sit back and watch. But I think, again, I think the tide has turned a little bit. I think morale is picking back up and they are ready to go to work. And so we're hoping that we get some administrative changes that allow them to do that.

Josh Kosnick: 31:14

You you didn't say'em by name, but I'll say California. He was talking about you. Um, so let, let's set aside the cartels,'cause I know that's a bigger problem. But if we were to just fix our neighborhood, if we were to fix our home country what needs to happen besides the policy change from the top? Even just REI instituting what Trump re instituted in his first term. What would he may, I can't use the word eradicate, but stop it and allow us to do some proper

Matthew Thomas: 31:44

Some of the first things we have to do is hold some of these other countries accountable, right? And because there's countries that are allowing things to happen that are furthering this. And so as the US we have to look at those countries and say, Hey. like, You have to knock it off. Because what a lot of people don't understand is like these asylum seekers, right? They say, oh, they're seeking asylum. They're seeking asylum. Not when they come from four and five countries away, because asylum is in the first country you get to. So if you're running from persecution and you're running from Guatemala and you go into Mexico, that's your asylum. You don't get to just keep leapfrogging through countries until you get to the one you wanna stay at. And so these countries that are allowing that we have to hold them accountable, right? And that's a big piece of it. And then I know that this is a hot button topic, but we've been asking for this one for probably at least 20 years that I can remember. To declare the cartels narco terrorists, because that's what they are. They are terrorist organizations. They're just darcos that are doing it. If you declare them narco terrorists, that opens up a whole lot of things. And the first thing people point to is, oh, you just wanna use the military on them. And no, that's not. Yes, that's great.'cause we could use some of our top tier, like in case of emergency break glass kind of guys to go take care of some of their real bad guys. But the bigger picture is it starts locking up assets and it starts locking up assets of companies that are dealing with them and funneling money for them and doing money laundering and hiding assets and all that kind of stuff. Starts locking all that up. So you start hitting these guys in their pocketbooks and you start hitting quote unquote legitimate companies that are assisting these criminal organizations and locking up their assets. That has a lasting effect and it has a very quick effect because. A millionaire businessman is not going to want to lose all of his assets overnight because he's doing some stuff on the side that he knows he shouldn't be doing Mm-hmm. with some of these criminal organizations. So that's a huge piece of it. Uh, Being able to take that away from them and lock up their assets.'cause that's one of their big things, right? They can buy whatever they want. They can buy their way through criminal cases. They can buy the hardware that they need to fight these wars that they're fighting down there with each other and with the Mexican military. And all that stuff goes along with it. So that's like high level. And then as you drill down and you get like into to the states themselves, how we start dealing with this, and I think this is just for society as a whole, not just the immigration problem or the drug cartels or any of that. We have to start being accountable as a society and stop trying to make everything, everybody else's fault and stop being a victim for every little thing. Because that's the biggest thing I've seen that has degraded our society now is the lack of accountability. So people just go do whatever they want and nobody's willing to stand up and say, no, we're not gonna take this anymore. We're not gonna put up with your behavior like that and we're not gonna allow you to do this to, to us, to our community. And of course we're willing to do that. We're willing to be that line, but when we do that, we need the people right behind us saying, yeah. And we back them. So these people that are claiming racism or, whatever ism they're gonna add on to the end of anything, to try and make it an emotional thing rather than what it is when they stop all that crap and they just say no. You are acting like a criminal. I don't know if you saw the recent video of the three young ladies that went in and stole some stuff and because they, yeah, I

Speaker View: 35:32

did see that.

Matthew Thomas: 35:32

they forgot that the rules changed, right? And so that rule change and the criminal justice system actually standing up and saying, enough is enough. This is basically time for mom and dad of the country to stand up and say, no, the kids aren't running it anymore. Parents are taking over again. And if you do that, you're gonna get smacked. And if you continue to do that, you're gonna go to your room. That's what we need. We need more parenting in this country. More accountability. And then, I hit on the cartel piece and some of the some of the stuff we could do there.

Josh Kosnick: 36:05

The video with those three ladies was hilarious because they're in handcuffs in the backseat of a car, and one's what? Why are we getting risk? Oh, the law changed. the, the one knew that the law changed prior to them going out on the stealing spree, but didn't say anything then until they were caught. So it was like, oh man.

Speaker View: 36:24

Yeah.

Matthew Thomas: 36:25

That was also Because they're gonna cost it. Yeah. And they're gonna test it, that's what happens. Like I can tell you from the cop world when we have a neighborhood that's taken over by gangs and we have to go back in and take that neighborhood to turn it back over to normal citizens, you have to go hard because they are not gonna want to give up that territory. So we go in, we go hard, we just hit'em and hit'em, and arrest as many as we can. And then they start learning like. oh, Okay, this is the way it is here. And typically speaking, when we do that pressure pushes them out. And then it allows us to work with the citizens in that community to take their community back because a lot of them are held hostage in these kind of situations.

Josh Kosnick: 37:05

Yeah, they're just trying to stay alive.

Matthew Thomas: 37:06

Yep.

Josh Kosnick: 37:07

Yeah. How much would the wall help.

Matthew Thomas: 37:10

Oh, it helped tremendously. What what it does more than anything. Again, we're not gonna completely stop it. And I get the people that say if you build a wall, they're gonna build, 10 foot wall. They're gonna build a 12 foot ladder. I get all of that. But they have to work a lot harder with that wall in place than they do without it in place, because where the wall is, they are working to get stuff across or under, if they're digging tunnels like the CINA lows do but they're working a lot harder and that's a lot easier to focus on when we don't have just open desert that they're crossing. Because there's areas down south of our county where it's a three strand barbed wire fence, or it's just some Normandy style barriers that are just sitting there in the desert and people can walk right through'em. And so that doesn't do anything. The wall as it is planned. If you look at the Yuma sector, go way back when Arizona, the Yuma sector of border patrol first put up their wall just in that sector. that sector's traffic of humans coming across cut by 95%. So that's how effective the wall can be.

Josh Kosnick: 38:13

95%. Man, those are numbers that the media is definitely not gonna report,

Matthew Thomas: 38:25

No.

Josh Kosnick: 38:26

but that's show, that's a case study and showing how effective it can be. So let's say we do the wall, we get the budgeting right? We get we get all the things that you mentioned done. How do the cartels react? What's their next move?

Matthew Thomas: 38:42

Oh, they're gonna, they're. They're opportunists. So they're gonna look for a way around whatever we put in front of them, right? So we put the wall up, they're gonna figure a way over it or under it or around it somewhere else if they use, the waterways. So they're always gonna work to counter us. That's why it has to be more than just it, it it can't just be one thing or two things, right? It has to be a holistic approach by our nation. We have to work with those other nations and say, Hey, if we find out that you guys are fostering these guys much like we do overseas, right? When we find out that a country is harboring terrorists, we don't treat them with kitted gloves. We need the same type of stance with our partners down south that, hey, if you guys are harboring these cartels, and we find that to be true, you're gonna pay the price, whether it's sanctions or whatever. We need that. We need better technology at the border. Not better, but more technology. We have some great technology, but we need that technology piece, and we need the wall piece. And then we need the policies in place. So when the border patrol does take action, there's some bite behind it, right? And there, if you get all those things in motion, we're gonna start knocking down their blocks and taking some control back. But again, they are a criminal organization and as we've seen all through time the criminals will constantly try to figure a way around it. And so it's a constant ebb and flow. But right now they're very powerful and I think we need to work to take some of that power back.

Josh Kosnick: 40:21

Yeah, and I've had the privilege of interviewing X-F-B-I-X-C-I-A, and they've both talked about Trenda Being more than a gang, but a criminal organization in and of themselves. So we know that case in Colorado, in Denver, with the apartments being taken over by that criminal organization. Let's say you, you like, so from your SWAT experience from your believe 32 years in law enforcement, when these policies change and were able to actually make some headway with, like you mentioned earlier, taking, given, getting back a neighborhood to to the citizens, how hard is that gonna be to root out some of those criminal organizations?

Matthew Thomas: 41:07

it's gonna be real hard. That's, we've been discussing that internally as law enforcement in general in the us especially with the TR guys and some of the,'cause they're obviously pretty well trained in their tactics and how they operate much like the high-end cartel guys. And, it is going to be a fight and it is going to be ugly. And unfortunately what has happened, because again, because of us policies is the fight is now at our doorstep. If you talk to any of the war fighters, any of the dudes that have been overseas over the past 20, 25, 30 years they, when you talk to them and you sit down and say, how do you feel about what you do? I feel great because we're keeping the fight over there, right? We're keeping it out of our homeland. And those guys. Have been warning people for years. I, I talk to a lot of top tier guys all the time and they tell us like, we love doing our job because it keeps it over there. But man, it's coming and they're trying to get here. And unfortunately over the past four years they're here. And I think you're starting to see evidence of that, as we saw in Louisiana. Unfortunately, that's just the beginning. And I think those of us in law enforcement understand that. And so to take this back is going to be a fight. And unfortunately, Americans haven't been exposed to this kind of stuff at home at very much at all. And they haven't been exposed to how violent that the real world is. And when you go up against a criminal organization that is intent on violence it's not gonna be pretty, it's not gonna look good. Cops are gonna have to. Do things that people are going to say is brutality or whatever the case, but it is called survival and it is called fighting criminal organizations and it looks rough. And I think we're gonna have a rough few years in law enforcement as far as what our fight looks like to to get it back a little bit. But I think that, I really feel like the US is at a point, which was evident in our last election, that they're fed up, they are done, Mm-hmm. right? And so I think the people across the US while they don't wanna see it, they're ready for us to do it. Let's take this back and let's get back to what we used to be. So we'll see, man.

Josh Kosnick: 43:31

We shall see because we know the media is gonna attack and keep us divided as much as possible. I don't know if you can answer this. I got my own theories and I think I'm right, but I'd love to hear your, uh, take on it. So the last four years you've talked about it. uh, Biden ended the policies that Trump instituted. Let in, like you said, about 20 million perhaps more. And so all these facts that you just laid out, those are facts. Those are indisputable. That being said the number we could argue about, but Biden ending the policy and all that different stuff, that you've mentioned, those are facts Why, why. Why would Biden or that administration, why would we as America allow these last four years of unprecedented illegal immigration happened?

Matthew Thomas: 44:21

As well as I do, there's a bunch of theories to that. Now, if you're asking Matt Thomas what he thinks, I think that there, there are people that have been elected into our government that have made their way into our government that mean to do our country harm. And they understand, especially if you look at, if you look at Sun tsu, If you study anything to do with warfare, it is much easier to beat your enemy without a fight. And I think a lot of countries understand that if they come at us head on that's gonna be a fight, right? We're gonna have a lot of people that step up to the plate. Just like in World War II when we got attacked just like nine 11 when we got attacked we are always willing to go to a good fight if somebody starts it. But I think you have a lot of people around the world that don't like us. I think that they understand how to take us down without a fight. And I think that has happened somewhat in our government, that people have gotten into positions where they can make policy change policy, steer our government in certain directions and they have bad intentions for the country. And I think some of that is that. And then I also think that, a lot of these politicians are so self-serving that they're only worried about what they get for themselves and be damned with what happens to the country. So

Josh Kosnick: 45:45

So I agree with everything you just said, but to what end, what's their end? With those ones with bad intentions, what do you think their end game is?

Matthew Thomas: 45:54

I think the end game is to end America as it looks. I don't know what the after effect would look like, but I think they are wanting to tear us down internally to where we become so divided that there's just fighting going on, and while we're all fighting each other and trying to figure out what's going on, they're slipping in and they're just there's an argument there that some of these countries are specifically pushing. uh, Numbers into our country so that they can tilt that into their favor. And if you wanna get really down the rabbit hole and you look at China and the China pushing in Chinese nationals, especially military age males I think the numbers, I'm not an expert on this, but I think from the experts I have listened to, if they can get 40% that they've taken our country and they control it. And so I think that's the end game is to take control of America and restructure it. Now, how that looks, I have no idea.

Josh Kosnick: 46:54

Yeah. I'm down that same rabbit hole. You're down. I just think a lot of people don't. So I read this study recently, and this will probably resonate with you 30% of us ha can think rationally and logically, and 70% are emotional thinkers. Yes. And therefore, that's what we see when we see those people that live in the glass bubble and don't think down these potentially conspiracy rabbit holes to think about the bigger picture. Those are the ones that are emotionally driven and wanna just be told what to think. That study made a, I was like, ah, okay. So pissed at society so much. I get it a little bit more now. Alright.

Matthew Thomas: 47:29

Real quick though, to that point, I think we have, as Americans have to also pay attention to our school boards and our schools, because that's where it starts and that's where that type of stuff starts, right? How our kids think and how our kids behave has been manipulated without a doubt over the past two decades at least, if not further back. And that has a direct effect because, if you start you're now you're seeing the, their adults. They're voting adults, right? And if they have been, I. uh, Through our school systems if their behavior has been modified, manipulated, steered, whatever into a certain way of thinking that lines up with the bad guys doing what they want to do it all lines up perfectly.

Josh Kosnick: 48:13

You are 100% correct on that. And Terrance had have just as much responsibility as our schools be. And I should say even more because I, I posted this as the school year started and it got quite a bit of attention, both good and bad. But I said, as a teacher, your job is to teach them not what to think, but how to think. And as a parent, same thing. You're supposed to teach your kids how to think and ask them questions and get them curious and allow them to process what it's like to think rationally instead of just being told what to think. Uh, so you're absolutely correct on the school, but the parents, you really gotta take control at home. I wanna ask a couple questions that are more broad based, um, tr down the, down this vein, but we talked about Tua a little bit, but we got Tom Holman coming in and Trump's saying, okay, we're gonna have these, you know, we're gonna have to have a mass exodus. of Illegal immigrants from the law enforcement side. How are you guys reacting to that? How are you preparing for that? What, what does that look like as a, because I know we, we know it's gonna be ugly. The media's gonna lambast everyone for doing it. Trump and Holman, they already know they're gonna get the majority of the hate. Uh, I think I've loved everything that Holman said. He's well prepared for it. He is already getting death threats. But from the law enforcement though, the first level of defense that's probably gonna have to shoulder a lot of this, how are you guys reacting and thinking about this?

Matthew Thomas: 49:45

Really it's. I, I I don't wanna sound like just nonchalant about this, but it's normal business for us because we're used to. Dealing with our own citizens that are committing crimes. Right now, you're just talking about a group that is not citizens here committing crimes because they've made it clear that's who they're going after first, right? They're going after the criminals. They wanna get the criminals expelled from this country that have been allowed in. And so for that for those purposes, we're, there's nothing that's a problem for us. And all we're really doing right now is of staging because these are all preliminary talks of what it's gonna look like. And I know people are, that are trying to cause mass hysteria saying, oh, there's gonna be these mass sweeps where they're just, going through neighborhoods and asking for papers and scooping up families. And that's all BS man. What they're doing is going to be very targeted. They have very specific bad guys that have criminal records that they're going after. Like these trend awa guys that they're gonna be. Focused on, and what that equals for us and local law enforcement is we're gonna have a lot of task forces develop is what you'll see. A lot of task forces where you have state, like for us, we cross designate what's called cross designate. So we'll cross designate and our sheriff will swear in border patrol or ICE agents to be able to enforce local laws. So when we partner up, they can enforce local laws and then they'll cross designate us so that we can help enforce federal laws. So you're gonna see those partnerships come together, and I can tell you already with Washington, DC and your local cops almost immediately when president Biden took office, almost immediately he cut off communications with law enforcement throughout the us. President Trump's team is not in place yet, but they have already opened the communication lines and said, Hey, when we take over, these are some of the things that we plan on doing, and they're asking our opinions. And that's huge, right? How is this going to affect you at the local level and what's our best avenue of approach at the local level? So we're having conversations we're working again on, on those task forces and stuff. And so it's gonna be a huge team effort. And again, I think what you're going to see is while it's being sensationalized by the media and stuff, when you get down to it, the US people want this. The US people showed that clearly in November, and I think we're gonna have a good backing from our, the majority of our population, and we're gonna push forward and just get it done.

Josh Kosnick: 52:20

Yeah, my, my fear I agree and I think the majority of us do want this because we don't want I have three daughters and, like I fear them growing and going to college and having what happened to Lake and Riley happened to one of my daughters. That's a nightmare. Yeah. Um, and we're done with that. Like we, we have, enough bad citizens on our own without having illegal criminals come over and increase that risk even further. The majority do. My fear is that the media is gonna propagandize so much and cause divide and hate towards you guys again. That that it starts some even worse things amongst citizens like you were referencing earlier, the end game for why the last four years happened.

Matthew Thomas: 53:03

Yeah, and I do not disagree with you. I think they're going to try that. But But I also think another thing that became clear in November in post November the election, is that the American people have also started to push back and say, no we're not buying your crap anymore. We don't care what you tell us. We understand that you, the media are liars like you've been called the whole time. We understand that nothing you're saying has proven true and it, and essentially like true Americans are like, okay, what does the news say? Okay, So that's what National Enquirer used to be, right? National Enquirer used to be magazine that you pick up in the story and you were like, this is all bs. Now people look at the news and they're like, this is all bs. And like a lot of people that I talk to, they're like, yeah, I watched the news for the weather and maybe a few local happenings and then I turn it off'cause I don't want to hear it. It's all rhetoric and it doesn't matter which side you're on, right or left. It's all rhetoric and people don't want that anymore. And I think honestly, your platform podcasts as proven by this election, this is the platform where people are going to get their information. YouTubes of the world, the podcasts of the world. This is where they're coming to get the no BS unfiltered, let's hear facts kind of stuff.

Josh Kosnick: 54:20

Because we ask questions that people actually want to hear. Like I'm, I actively think about, Hey, what would my audience want me to ask Matt?

Speaker View: 54:28

Right?

Josh Kosnick: 54:28

And so same with Joe Rogan, same with Sean Ryan. Same with any of the people that put out real podcasts that are having real people on, that Have an expertise in a certain area.

Matthew Thomas: 54:38

And I think another beautiful thing about the podcast is the ones that'll do it is we don't have to agree on everything. We can have disagreements, but we can sit here and we can go back and forth with that and have a discussion. And you give me your point of view. And I give you my point of view. You give me facts that support your view. I give you facts that support mine, and then the people make a decision what the news used to be, right? They would just report facts and the people decide. And I think that's a lot of what happens here with podcasting.

Josh Kosnick: 55:06

Yeah. Although I've been questioning more and more how long the news has actually reported facts. Like when Yeah. when that, when that stopped. Anyhow.'cause I still look at those images and videos of us supposedly landing on the moon and being like, people believe this, like this is interesting. Anyhow we won't go down that rabbit hole

Matthew Thomas: 55:24

and you're gonna, you're gonna get some comments on that one.

Josh Kosnick: 55:28

Oh, I always do. They're like, every time I say that, they're like, I bet you believe the earth is flat too. I was like, actually, I don't know if I believe that one or not, but I know for damn sure they didn't land on the moon and then supposedly lose the technology. Now we're 50 years advanced and have way better technology and we can't get back there. I know that for damn sure. Anyhow, so my last question second to last. I always ask one consistent one at the end, and this one we may or may not agree on, but it came to mind as I was thinking about Covid and you would see, and now this summer was in California, some other places where cops would arrest people for not complying, even being outside. And I think for those of us, just in the citizens side of things, we wanna know that the cops have our back when the government becomes tyrannical. And I guess my question is if they try and push that again, where do, where and when will the cops stand up and say, yeah, we're not doing that.

Matthew Thomas: 56:31

Oh, we did that last night. We did that in 2020 from the get go. Our agency was one I know you didn't see it. Across the board. And I I can't say that, I can't say that you'd see it across the board again. I think a lot more would fall into our because We were the outliers and we stood up and we said, we're not doing that. People have the right to do what they want. We we caught some hate for allowing a church to hold their Easter service. They contacted us, they were in our jurisdiction. They said, we wanna hold Easter service. We're like, yeah. Hold Easter service. They said, Hey, we're gonna do everything that they're saying to do, know, all the little separation that they're talking about and all that stuff. We're gonna do all this stuff according to their guidelines, but we're still gonna gather yeah, gather. You have a First Amendment right to do that. And we're guided by the Constitution, not some made up rule by a politician. And when we did that and when they let people know that they were having their service, of course. The the people that were freaking out were calling us killers and murders. The sheriff and I got so much hate mail talking about how they were a good Christian and their wishing death on my family. And I'm like, really? Okay. And so, we've been through it before. We know what it's like. We would stand up to it still. I would hope that there's more law enforcement leaders that understand that they were duped the last time and fell for that stuff because we also, it carried over to, high school sporting events. They would call our office, we want you to come kick these people out'cause they're not wearing a mask. No, that's not our job. They can, they, they have the right to be wherever they want, however they wanna be. There's, these are made up rules. And, but I do think that you would see a lot more of law enforcement standing up against that than you saw the last time because they understand hopefully, that they were duped.

Josh Kosnick: 58:14

Yeah, people just have such short memories and I feel like most people have already forgotten that should happen. Where people, they're filling in skate parks with sand and arresting people for surfing and out and outdoors were, fresh air last time I checked was actually a good thing for us, not a bad thing.

Matthew Thomas: 58:31

And I'll tell you, like even our governor we fought with our governor. The sheriff called him and said, look, governor, I'm not trying to start a fight, but we're not following your executive orders because your orders do not override the US Constitution, and that's what we follow.

Josh Kosnick: 58:45

Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, I hope you're right because that's the, the, I uh, give you a perspective. I live in one of the most liberal counties in the country.

Matthew Thomas: 58:53

Oh

Josh Kosnick: 58:54

we have the state capital here and the major university. Uh, So we call it 80 square miles surrounded by reality. But my perspective's a little more slanted than yours down in southern Arizona.

Matthew Thomas: 59:04

yeah.

Josh Kosnick: 59:05

Good. I always ask this question at the end, and it could be on anything that we talked about already or something just comes to your heart, but what's an unpopular belief that you hold to be true that you think most others would disagree with?

Matthew Thomas: 59:19

Oh Oh man. In today's world I really feel like that's my belief in Jesus Christ, man. Um, you know, I, there's times where I feel that's not true. But I also know that we can get stuck in our own echo chambers, right? And you tend to surround yourself with like-minded people. And I know I'm around Christians a lot but I feel there's a huge attack on Christianity. And, I think that that is an unpopular belief, especially. I. When you get into government, and I'm a leader in a government agency. And I'll openly talk faith and Jesus Christ at work with coworkers if they wanna talk about it. I'm not shy about my religion and my beliefs and that can that can close some conversations down pretty quick sometimes.

Josh Kosnick: 1:00:08

Yeah. Well, I'm a hundred percent on board with you on that belief. It's interesting. I think we're seeing a bit of revival in some po pockets or sectors, even with our youth. We're seeing some great things.

Speaker View: 1:00:20

Yeah.

Josh Kosnick: 1:00:20

because it's interesting, there's been people that have been a large portion of people that have been pushed away from the church. not an understanding that the church or a leader of a church isn't Jesus

Matthew Thomas: 1:00:34

Right.

Josh Kosnick: 1:00:34

and they can't separate, it's don't let your religion get in the way of your spirituality type. They can't, in their minds, somehow separate that it could just be that there was another human being that pushed you away from the true being in Jesus. And I'm spot on with you there. I think that seeing some, well, I'll give for me. Go ahead.

Matthew Thomas: 1:00:58

Yeah I was gonna say, I'll give you, my example to, your point I came up in the Catholic church as a, as I got into this profession, I broke away from the church because of the Catholic church. And so I got away from my faith because of how I felt about the people in the church. And then when I got back to faith I got back into a non-denominational Christian Church. And when I got back to faith. I started focusing more on Jesus and God and less on the people because people are people, right? And we're all imperfect. And when I started doing that, everything started making a lot more sense for me. And it's a lot easier to be connected to your faith that way.

Josh Kosnick: 1:01:48

Oh, 100% and it also reminded me as You were tell, telling your first part of the story is I wonder if this is true in law enforcement, our military friends would tell us that you never meet an atheist in a foxhole.

Matthew Thomas: 1:01:59

That's right. That is right. Yeah. When when your life is on the line and you realize that it could be over in the next few seconds I think a lot of people have an understanding that they're, maybe they think they don't believe, but they catch some belief real quick.

Josh Kosnick: 1:02:19

Yeah, very much this has been an awesome conversation. Where can people follow you?

Matthew Thomas: 1:02:25

I am mainly active on Instagram. I, my handle there is at Deputy onetime and that's again where I'm most active. I'm also on LinkedIn, if anybody wants to look for me in the professional realm. I'm just, my name Matthew Thomas on LinkedIn. And, I would also remind people, I know we didn't talk about it, but I have a book out called Interceptors and it's all about the cartel fight. So if they're interested in in reading about how we fought some of the battles we fought down here against the S cartel, go give it a read.

Josh Kosnick: 1:02:57

would say to everyone, all the Spartans listening, pick that book up. Not only as a thank you and. uh. Mad for pouring into us today. But also that's a fascinating read because the cartels, as he alluded to have so much power. And like we, we may watch shows like Narcos and be entertained by it, but we don't understand the dev. We may not grasp the devastating effect they're having on our society. And Matt has been firsthand witness to a lot of it down there in Arizona and will continue to be throughout his career. So support, but also understand that this is a way bigger deal. Like how many presidential candidates were often Mexico before they uh, anointed that woman? How many was it?

Matthew Thomas: 1:03:39

I don't know the number, but I, is that's why she, I think it was over 10. yeah. It's. It's a thing down there that's and I have connections through the cop world with Mexican cops and I. when you meet, especially somebody higher up in a Mexican police force, you're like, whew, I don't know what his life expectancy is'cause it's not long down there.

Josh Kosnick: 1:04:02

Yeah, Because the cartels run everything. The government, I think that it was a crazy number, like over 10 presidential candidates were murdered before they, anointed this woman.

Matthew Thomas: 1:04:12

I

Josh Kosnick: 1:04:12

you know, she, She works for them because they've, they control everything down there. This has been a great conversation, really enlightening. Matt. Thank you for your time.

Matthew Thomas: 1:04:20

Absolutely. Jess, thank you for having me.

Josh Kosnick: 1:04:22

Alright, Spartan audience, you know what to do. Share this episode far and wide. Get the word out. He gave some great facts, some great solutions. And we know the media is going to go hard against whatever good work our law enforcement's trying to do to solve this problem. So share this far and wide so the facts are actually seen and not media talking heads telling us what to think. you know what to do. Remember the good and great are the enemies of possible lead, like a Spartan today.